geekent’s stuff’n things

Have you seen the BINGO card? It’s a pretty clever piece of shut-them-up-quick anti-argument propaganda. Does it have merit, well yeah. Because when fanboy clash with fangirl, oft times fanboy argues with basic blunt statements, the old “put up or shut up” or “well that’s just the way it is”, which contribute nothing to the discussion. But are all of these fanboy statements valid to ignore? Maybe, maybe not. Let’s explore:
B
Just read manga like the rest of the girls.
Well that’s just dumb. Manga is more riddled with offensive material than mainstream superheroes are. The Japanese tendency to mix sex and violence is highly disturbing, and the abundance of subjugation and rape is probably 100:1 compared to American work. And the child-like appearance with adult body parts is just disturbing. Not saying this is all manga, but it’s more rife with that kind of stuff…
But doing martial arts in high heels is perfectly reasonable!
If “What Not To Wear” taught me anything, it’s that flats are ugly. A little bit of heel is needed simply for appearance sake. Not stilettos though, that’s completely impractical. Sometimes though, aesthetics do need to win out in the fantasy world of superheroes.
No one wants realism in comics!
Not true. There’s a dividing line between reality and fantasy. For any story to work the fantasy has to have some grounding in reality, and in superhero comics, a large part of that is the visual realization of heroes and heroines with some anatomical correctness and realistic movement and quasi-plausible wardrobe, as well as naturalistic dialogue and some semblance of real personality.
If you don’t like it, shut up and write your own.
Erm, it’s not about what’s available, it’s about what’s prominent. Making your own comics isn’t going to change much (but it does help). Doesn’t mean you can’t still try and get the bigger companies to change their tune, though.
Sexism is a convention of the genre!
Not even worth examining. Whoever tries to argue this point is missing the point.
I
You’re only jealous because you don’t look like that.
We’re all jealous that we don’t look like that. We all have our insecurities, and for some the buff man and buxom woman play into that, for others it’s just a reminder of what you don’t have or what you don’t look like. But the point is more that the women are drawn as sex objects from a by many artists when it’s completely outside the scope of the story being told. It’s not a jealousy thing, it’s about the necessity of objectification…
But super-strong women don’t need bras!
I agree. Bras, unless they’re worn on the outside like Superman’s underwear, has no place inside spandex. I don’t want to see undewear lines on the Flash’s tights, nor bra lines under Batwoman’s. That said, nipples really don’t need to be represented under the spandex either.
But rape happens in real life too!
Exactly, but do we really need to have it perpetrated or insinuated within the pages of escapist material? The answer is: sometimes. But rape as character motivation is tired, and as “character building” is insulting. It can be a story point, yes, but in superhero comics, which *should* be intended for all ages, it’s really not appropriate.
Why are you complaining about comics when women in Muslim countries are oppressed?
The same reason you’re complaining that the continuity between 52 and Justice Society of America aren’t in synch instead of worrying about kids in Sudan. Women can care about comics too.
Are you calling me a misogynist!?
Are you one? Take a good look at yourself, and answer that on your own. If you think the question is even being asked of you, do you have an answer?
N
So you want comics full of ugly fat chicks?
Some women I’m sure do, but no, I think what is needed is respect of the female characters beyond sex objects and rape bait and character builders for the male characters. Women should look just as good kicking ass as men should, but naturally good, not “sexed-up” good.
But she’s from an alien culture with no nudity taboo!
If there are alien men around also sporting a mostly nude aesthetic, then great. But if it’s simply an excuse to draw a tarty woman with no characterization, then bleh.
But men are drawn unrealistically too!
See also: No one wants realism in comics!. Yes, the men are drawn as an ideal, just like the women, but they’re not put in pouty lipped, suggestive poses all the time. It’s an artistic and editorial decision to allow such conduct, and that’s what needs to change.
This is just fanboy entitlement… from women!
Damn skippy, only it’s not. It’s a matter of respecting the audience, not just women, but all readers. Fanboy complaining is usually about inane plot points and discrepancies in characterization: this is about treating, en masse, the readers and characters with a different level of respect and consideration.
My girlfriend never complains about this stuff.
Mine neither. My girlfriend will argue “but there’s the men for the ladies, too” on occasion, and she’s right, but also acknowledging that the men aren’t sexied up in the same way the women are… in other words, either sexy up the men or tone the women down…
G
If you don’t like them, don’t read them.
But they do like them, they’re just assaulted by imagery or characterization that tries so very hard to push them away. Imagine if you’re, say, a big fan of NASCAR, and suddenly they start making the pit crews wear thong underwear instead of coveralls. Doesn’t mean you hate NASCAR, just, really, what the hell? That’s inappropriate.
But girls often wear skirts. Why wouldn’t they go flying in them?
See But doing martial arts in high heels is perfectly reasonable!… again, it’s aesthetics and I don’t have a problem with it. A sensible superheroine will have some trunks or shorts on underneath.
Men can’t help themselves! Why are you punishing us for our biology?
Not sure what angle this argument is coming from. If this is a rape arguement, it’s disgusting.
There aren’t many women working in mainstream comics because they’re just not good enough.
Well, considering how awful so many of the male writers and artists are, I’d call bullshit on that. Yes, there’s a sexist attitude towards women in hiring them for the big projects, but they really need to get their foot in the door the same way most other writers and artist do these days: by doing something else first. Whether it’s publishing their own comics (Jill Thompson) or writing a TV show (Johanna Stokes) or film or book that has comics crossover appeal (Laurell K. Hamilton or Jodi Picoult), or just proving your as big a continuity nerd as the boys (Gail Simone). You can’t just expect a free ride. Yes, the men and women in charge need to take greater strides at identifying the right talent (male, female, black, white, asian, latino, gay, straight) and putting them on the right books.
But male characters die too!
Uh huh. But male characters die for the sake of saving the world or in the heat of battle. They die as heroes for honor and valiance. Women tend to die to give a male character motivation or “depth”. There’s a heavy and unfortunate disparity there. I think the only male character to die for this purpose was Terry Long, Donna Troy’s husband.
That’s censorship!
In a sense, yes. But what’s being pushed for isn’t censorship, but decency and good taste in how characters are written and drawn.
But that costume suits her personality!
That can happen, sure. But sometimes it’s just flagrantly skin exposing for the sake of titillation. A little thought behind the practicality of some wardrobes is necessary. Bad character and wardrobe design, however, is not exclusive to female characters. Check out the bulk of what Rob Liefeld created. Even the legendary George Perez doesn’t really make very good costumes. I’d accept Phanom Lady over Jericho any day. In large part the problem is artists aren’t costume designers or fashionistas. Perhaps DC and Marvel should have a few trained designers on staff whose responsibility it is to design new wardrobes and hairstyles and whatnot for the characters…?
Women just don’t get comics.
That’s a blanket statement about a very large population, and is stupid to argue. Yes, there aren’t a lot of women who buy comics, and there aren’t a lot of women (by and large) who like comics, but when they female characters are objectified the way they are and when comics are so abjectly written and/or drawn for a post-pubescent male audience, it’s not really any great surprise they’re not interested. However, if superhero books didn’t focus their stories and art so much on male power fantasies (often to the denigration of women) then they would so immediately drive so many women away.
…I mean, because they’re just not interested.
Which isn’t wholly true and you know it. I’ve gotten many women (friends and girlfriends alike) into comic books, on many occasions even superhero books. They’re interested but obviously easily off-put.
Comics are never going to change. You’re wasting your time.
And with that attitude they never will. Imagine if all black people said “things are never going to change”… sure there’s some people who would like that, but we make fun of those people and their level of intelligence and their incestuous parentage.
Conclusions
I see why the BINGO card exists. Those, en masse, are some pretty dumb sentiments, and I too would get tired of having to reply to them over and over. However, not all of them are easily dismissed, and they can have a deeper argument behind them, provided there actually is a deeper argument behind them when they’re made.